Bump albedo changing with albedo

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    I'm not sure that this is a bug or a feature request - I can see the rationale behind the way it currently works, but I am used to (and like) the way it previously worked:


    Assuming I use the Albedo as the bump: When the colour balance (HSL) of the master albedo texture is changed, the associated colour balance (therefore contrast and bump definition) is changed with it. I want the bump to remain tied to the texture as it was when I set the bump.


    {I use quite high saturated and defined images, then tint them and de-saturate them to better match reality/photos. I often 'fade' them too, letting the bump take the definition rather than the contrast in the image. To do this now I need to re-load the original texture as the bump after I change the albedo: an extra few clicks I need to remember to do.}

    Hey Gadget , first off, just to make sure, you're strictly talking about changing the Material settings in SketchUp directly, not through our Enscape Materials dialogue, correct?


    May I ask, with which previous Enscape release(s) did you not experience this behaviour?

    The SU material editor and En editor both do different things;

    - SU has multiple ways to dynamically change the underlying image's colour (colour wheel, HSL, HSB, RGB) as well as being able to colour match from an area on-screen.

    - En has a base colour you pick from a palette that it overlays. You can then fade the origional image into this colour. This has no effect on the actual underlying image.


    I think the last version I was using was 2.3.2.420-gdeb9705

    Gadget , I'd file a feature request allowing the bump in Enscape to remain the same, even when the material is being adjusted through SketchUp. Would you like to add any further wishes to that request? :)

    Only what I've mentioned before with regards to bumps:

    The "brightness" slider on a bump is pointless since it does the same thing as increasing/lowering the actual bump. It should be replaced with "contrast".

    Similarly the "Inverted" check is pointless since you just set a negative value to the bump.


    And a way to align the bump image with the albedo image - perhaps some sort of overlay?

    Quote from Gadget

    Only what I've mentioned before with regards to bumps:

    The "brightness" slider on a bump is pointless since it does the same thing as increasing/lowering the actual bump. It should be replaced with "contrast".

    Similarly the "Inverted" check is pointless since you just set a negative value to the bump.


    And a way to align the bump image with the albedo image - perhaps some sort of overlay?

    The "brightness" slider should provide further fine tuning for the amount of Bump. What would be your advantage being able to adjust the contrast instead of the brightness of your Bump material? :)


    Further, I wouldn't call the "Inverted" option entirely pointless, as it can be used to practically change the algebraic sign of the amount of bump defined, so "+" to "-" and vice versa. Would you still like to remove it completely, or replace it with something else?


    Regarding your last question, you want to have a kind of option to make the bump image selectable on its own in SketchUp, so that it could be freely moved over the corresponding object/surface? Because usually, the bump should already be aligned with the Albedo Texture by default?

    The bump goes in 0.01 increments; how much fine-tuning do you think is noticeable to the human eye?

    When you increase the "brightness", the colour values of all pixels move up equally. This has the result of 'flattening' the image so that there is less difference between the lightest areas and the darkest, which results in the bump being smoother and less of a bump.

    When you increase the "contrast", the lights get brighter and the darks get darker. This has the result of increasing the definition of the bump and (depending on the starting image) increasing the bump effect. (And decreasing the contrast would have a similar effect to the existing brightness control.)


    The inverted is pointless, because currently if you try using it the texture just turns black. I can't think on anything else to do with bumps that's a simple on/off mechanism...Unless it's to do with the following and it would turn on/off the underlying albedo. (perhaps as a Preview?)


    Re: Aligning the bump - yes, if you are using the albedo as the bump it will line up. And most of the time this is what you want. However if you have different size bump to the albedo... Or want to have a more random look to the bump with the likes of gravel, earth, sand... Or want to align a generic skeletal leaf with a specific foliage leaf... Or want to use a generic (eg) brick bump and have to line it up with a specific brick texture...

    All of these could be done by editing the bump (or creating a new one) in a paint package, but 90% of the time it's really not worth it and you just live with the limitations of what can currently be done.

    Quote from Gadget

    When you increase the "brightness", the colour values of all pixels move up equally. This has the result of 'flattening' the image so that there is less difference between the lightest areas and the darkest, which results in the bump being smoother and less of a bump.

    When you increase the "contrast", the lights get brighter and the darks get darker. This has the result of increasing the definition of the bump and (depending on the starting image) increasing the bump effect. (And decreasing the contrast would have a similar effect to the existing brightness control.)

    I've filed a feature request accordingly to replace the "Brightness" slider with a "Contrast" slider instead.


    Quote from Gadget

    The inverted is pointless, because currently if you try using it the texture just turns black. I can't think on anything else to do with bumps that's a simple on/off mechanism...Unless it's to do with the following and it would turn on/off the underlying albedo. (perhaps as a Preview?)

    The texture turning black is a known issue present in our preview, our release version doesn't have this problem though. This behaviour will of course be resolved as soon as possible. So you effectively want to replace our "Inverted" option with an option to turn on/off the albedo, to preview only the bump in general?

    Quote from Gadget

    Re: Aligning the bump - yes, if you are using the albedo as the bump it will line up. And most of the time this is what you want. However if you have different size bump to the albedo... Or want to have a more random look to the bump with the likes of gravel, earth, sand... Or want to align a generic skeletal leaf with a specific foliage leaf... Or want to use a generic (eg) brick bump and have to line it up with a specific brick texture...

    All of these could be done by editing the bump (or creating a new one) in a paint package, but 90% of the time it's really not worth it and you just live with the limitations of what can currently be done.

    Okay, I've further filed a feature request to provide a functionality which will allow you to align the Bump however you like accordingly.


    Just to make sure, you're aware that you can set the "Width" and "Height" of your Bump after activating the "Explicit texture transformation" in the Bump settings dialogue? :)

    Quote from Demian Gutberlet

    . So you effectively want to replace our "Inverted" option with an option to turn on/off the albedo, to preview only the bump in general?

    I was thinking that when ticked you would see the underlying albedo with the bump-map over-layed (as a preview) - this would help with the alignment.


    (Setting the W/H of a bump is part of it, but you also need to be able to change the origin of the bump too. ;) )

    Quote from Gadget

    I was thinking that when ticked you would see the underlying albedo with the bump-map over-layed (as a preview) - this would help with the alignment.


    (Setting the W/H of a bump is part of it, but you also need to be able to change the origin of the bump too. ;) )

    Pardon, I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that. The bump-map should already be overlayed over the underlying albedo, correct? And since you don't want to just turn the albedo on or off, could you please briefly re-describe this request? I'd be very thankful.

    I was referring to within the materials dialogue; when un-ticked the image would show the bump * as the basic image file loaded into the program (with any brightness/contrast changes applied). If ticked, the image shown on the dialogue changes to a preview of how it affects the underlying albedo.

    (Perhaps a r-click menu to change the lighting orientation on the preview image?)


    (* Or the Normal I suppose? Do you use a bump with a normal? Or does the normal superseded the bump? I really don't know enough about it to comment.)

    Gadget , to put everything together:


    You'd like a checkbox, allowing you to either just show the bump as an image and when checked, you'll see the bump effects directly, but only as a preview in the dialogue, not in Enscape?


    Further, how do you imagine the "right-click menu" in the preview to function? You generally just want to define where the bump shadows fall, correct? Also, should this lighting orientation you've set also overwrite the general bump shadow orientation which is usually dynamically defined by our sun/lights? Maybe it's only meant as a preview instead?


    Also, our renderer only uses normal maps which are converted from Bumps after they've been loaded.

    Quote from Demian Gutberlet

    Gadget , to put everything together:


    You'd like a checkbox, allowing you to either just show the bump as an image and when checked, you'll see the bump effects directly, but only as a preview in the dialogue, not in Enscape?

    :thumbsup:

    (Of course since Enscape is 'live' if you changed the height/orientation/contrast of it then the texture would change in the model too. Any lighting shown on the preview is simply letting you get a better idea of what changing the texture is doing to the bump.)

    Quote from Demian Gutberlet

    Further, how do you imagine the "right-click menu" in the preview to function? You generally just want to define where the bump shadows fall, correct? Also, should this lighting orientation you've set also overwrite the general bump shadow orientation which is usually dynamically defined by our sun/lights? Maybe it's only meant as a preview instead?

    The "R-click" was just to avoid clutter or another button; you can only see the effects of a bump on a preview with an oblique light source. There is probably a better way to show it (Maybe the light source just tracks the mouse while the preview is active? Maybe a little sun icon can be dragged around the edge of the preview? )

    It never occurred to me that the preview light source could over-write the model lighting; I can't think on any scenario where I would want it to.


    Just considering a preview; I occasionally switch to 'white mode' to see what the bump looks like without the texture applied... Maybe the preview could have three states? Image-whitemode-textured?


    (I also think it would be useful to have a duplicate of the Amount slider on the same tab.)

    (... and when the button to "use albedo" is clicked from the general tab it would load another copy of the albedo to use as a bump rather than using the albedo it's self.)


    "Also, our renderer only uses normal maps which are converted from Bumps after they've been loaded." 8) Perhaps something could be ticked when loading a bump to say 'this is a normal'? - Then it wouldn't automatically 'greyscale' the loaded image. (May not be necessary.)

    Gadget , I've filed a further feature request accordingly. Thank you for the detailed feedback. ;)