Rhino 8: Status quo and next steps

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    this is getting old. anyone else having trouble with the installer getting stuck on this? I know Rhino isnt a priority but even a trashy installer is getting out of hand. the 3.4.4 installer works seamlessly. Despite being over a year old.



    We're sorry about this jaias92 , this is a known problem we're currently working on resolving before our upcoming full release, one relatively quick workaround is detailed here: RE: Previous Release / Preview Threads Merged


    Again, our apologies for the extra effort caused here. Of course let me know in case you're unsuccessful trying the workaround as well.

  • Hi everyone, after finding my own workaround with near zero help from the Enscape team, I am inclined to recommend you guys try twinmotion. The renderings are superior and have way more function. Only drawback is the grass painting which needs to be largely manual. It is a sad state of affairs and i have truly not been more annoyed with any other archtech company in my life. Even Autodesk, who is well known to charge exorbitant amounts for their software, at the very least, ship working software. Now youre all paying for a software that is inferior in every aspect.

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    Hi, what happened to this link? Is Enscape 4.0 not available for Windows in Rhino 8?

    Hi ShynnSup , pardon the confusion this particular link was not available anymore only because the previous Enscape 4.0 Preview 4 thread was merged. You can always acquire our latest preview here. (In this case Preview 5)

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    Hi everyone, after finding my own workaround with near zero help from the Enscape team, I am inclined to recommend you guys try twinmotion. The renderings are superior and have way more function. Only drawback is the grass painting which needs to be largely manual. It is a sad state of affairs and i have truly not been more annoyed with any other archtech company in my life. Even Autodesk, who is well known to charge exorbitant amounts for their software, at the very least, ship working software. Now youre all paying for a software that is inferior in every aspect.

    Right away I'm sorry to hear that and our apologies regarding the need for a workaround in this case when it comes to having to manually uninstall Enscape 3.x.x. This is hereby not directly related to problems with drawing a license from our cloud servers as you've inquired, but due to an unwanted behavior with the MSI installer we're using. Of course this is something we plan to resolve before our full release as well.


    Just to make sure I'm understanding this correctly, but in this case you were able to properly install Preview 5 thereafter or were you also experiencing problems still during the installation process or while trying to use the Preview? Please feel free to let me know whenever.

  • Can the Enscape team provide us with any sort of reassurance that they are working towards a deadline of fixing the currently know areas where Enscape 4 is worse than Enscape 3.4.4?

    We find ourselves in the peculiar situation where we have bought Rhino 8 but cannot install it because Enscape 4.0 is still too faulty. More urgent is the fact that we are growing and need more Rhino licenses, but haven't even activated our R8 licenses, so this gives a management headache.

    To be very direct, we are looking at a crossroad and are weighing our options. The push from management means we will have to commit to a direction soon (getting a working Enscape in the new version of rhino or change software). Our current internal tipping point will be in two weeks (1. may) where we will retest the latest version of Enscape 4. If it is still not usable we will start transitioning all our Revit users to twinmotion (giving its already included in our revit license) and transition all our designers/rhino-users to D5 + native rhino viewport "rendering". A new public statement from Enscape indicating commitment to fixing the software would give me leverage to maybe extend this, but the people i report to are not happy with the history of excuses.


    I dread the added internal education we will need to make a transition, so i really hope there is a future which includes Enscape. I can see the glimmer of hopes in the latest tests. Good shadow and highlight control, so the render quality is going up, but the usability has unfortunately not followed.

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    Can the Enscape team provide us with any sort of reassurance that they are working towards a deadline of fixing the currently know areas where Enscape 4 is worse than Enscape 3.4.4?

    We find ourselves in the peculiar situation where we have bought Rhino 8 but cannot install it because Enscape 4.0 is still too faulty. More urgent is the fact that we are growing and need more Rhino licenses, but haven't even activated our R8 licenses, so this gives a management headache.

    To be very direct, we are looking at a crossroad and are weighing our options. The push from management means we will have to commit to a direction soon (getting a working Enscape in the new version of rhino or change software). Our current internal tipping point will be in two weeks (1. may) where we will retest the latest version of Enscape 4. If it is still not usable we will start transitioning all our Revit users to twinmotion (giving its already included in our revit license) and transition all our designers/rhino-users to D5 + native rhino viewport "rendering". A new public statement from Enscape indicating commitment to fixing the software would give me leverage to maybe extend this, but the people i report to are not happy with the history of excuses.


    I dread the added internal education we will need to make a transition, so i really hope there is a future which includes Enscape. I can see the glimmer of hopes in the latest tests. Good shadow and highlight control, so the render quality is going up, but the usability has unfortunately not followed.

    Hi HNY what problem areas do you need to see addressed? I mean explicitly? We are working on several performance improvements but what beyond that?

  • The latest internal test we did in an attemt to be "upgrade ready" showed the errors explained by "SOS" in this thread:

    SOS

    The key things which render the program unusable in its current state is:

    Transparency errors

    Reflection errors

    Bugging the speed of Rhino down

    The key things which some of our users refuse to live with (which was tried under the Enscape 3.5 period) is:

    Constant live translation of objects moving (in copy, move, array commands etc.)


    Unfortunately i cannot provide a full list of points this time around, simply because we stopped testing the feasibility of the program after we identified enough issues to warrant the extended wait. Hence we may have missed further problems.

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    We will release a new service pack for 4.0 today I would ask you to retry that version and provide a list. I am sorry that you are struggling with the product, the forum might not be the most ideal way of that information reaching us though. If you provide a list I assure you we will take a look.

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    Christian Radowski The viewport is unmanageable when enscape is running. It is slowing down my workflow and frustrating me. Enscape has been letting its users down since 3.4.4 and i urge you and your team to reflect on how unacceptable it is to charge companies money for such a buggy product.

    1. Did you try the most recent version of Enscape and Rhino together? You should notice an improvement.


    2. We are constantly working together with McNeel to improve the situation we switched to a different part of the SDK using the Rhino ChangeQueue with 3.5 to be able to make use of more Rhino features which are unavailable through the previously used SDK "flavor". Bear in mind this is highly simplified. Anyhow, this is one of the reason for the issues you are facing and we are continuously trying to address these together with McNeel but it isn't as simple as one might think and going back to the older implementation is simply not feasible.


    3. While I get your frustration I think it is misplaced. This change was necessary for multiple reasons, with the best intentions. I am sorry that it takes so long and is so complicated to get it right but the team that is working on the Rhino integration has put a lot of effort into this and is continuing to do so.

  • 1. Did you try the most recent version of Enscape and Rhino together? You should notice an improvement.


    2. We are constantly working together with McNeel to improve the situation we switched to a different part of the SDK using the Rhino ChangeQueue with 3.5 to be able to make use of more Rhino features which are unavailable through the previously used SDK "flavor". Bear in mind this is highly simplified. Anyhow, this is one of the reason for the issues you are facing and we are continuously trying to address these together with McNeel but it isn't as simple as one might think and going back to the older implementation is simply not feasible.


    3. While I get your frustration I think it is misplaced. This change was necessary for multiple reasons, with the best intentions. I am sorry that it takes so long and is so complicated to get it right but the team that is working on the Rhino integration has put a lot of effort into this and is continuing to do so.

    My company upgraded to rhino 8 because we were promised it would work well with Enscape. Fair enough, we did it, and its still a mess. If my frustration is misplaced, can you tell me where to direct it to? We are paying Enscape and Chaos for a software that doesnt work. Rhino 8 works decently by itself.

    My criticism is of Enscape 4.0 and Rhino 8. It is the latest version. There are plenty of forum posts sharing this same issue. You should ensure not to slow down a workflow considering enscape's entire advantage is that of a renderer that works seamlessly and 'within' rhino.

  • We will release a new service pack for 4.0 today I would ask you to retry that version and provide a list. I am sorry that you are struggling with the product, the forum might not be the most ideal way of that information reaching us though. If you provide a list I assure you we will take a look.

    Hi Christian,


    We tried the latest servicepack and the reflection issue from the other thread seems to be resolved. Remaining known issues from our one user test would be:


    1. Rhino viewport still slow when enscape is running. (Workaround : don't run enscape while working, only rendering)
    2. PNG's does not have transparent background anymore, but white. (Workaround possible by making it into a native enscape material)
    3. Object will move/appear simultaneously/live when live-updates are turned on, which affects performance negatively. As an example, when using the copy command in rhino; The object you are copying disappears in the enscape viewport, the "new" copied object will float around in the enscape viewport until you place it in rhino. The original object will reappear when you are done using the copy command. (I guess there could be more "funny" stuff happening if we tested more commands, like array, loft, flow...). (Workaround : don't run enscape while working, only rendering)
    4. No enscape toolbar showing (Workaround: You need to create a custom toolbar to access the Enscape buttons).
    5. Render results are different every time you render. We tried to render same view, with the same settings, 7 times, a we got 7 different results in terms of shadows and reflections. We tried another one where, the first render was the best result in terms of reflections, we rendered 4 more times which were similar, but worse in terms of glass reflection, sadly. This was not a problem with 3.4.4, and it is a bit "scary" when you think about postproduction and updating renders. (Workaround: none known yet - a risk we have to live with).
    6. The Rhino viewport will change/sync, when selecting a saved view in the enscape viewport. (Workaround: None, just live with it).

    The problems are limited to annoyances, and i do believe we are slowly treading outside the "unusable state". We will try and upgrade more users and hope it will not lead to too much lost work and efficiency.

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    Hi Christian,


    We tried the latest servicepack and the reflection issue from the other thread seems to be resolved. Remaining known issues from our one user test would be:


    1. Rhino viewport still slow when enscape is running. (Workaround : don't run enscape while working, only rendering)
    2. PNG's does not have transparent background anymore, but white. (Workaround possible by making it into a native enscape material)
    3. Object will move/appear simultaneously/live when live-updates are turned on, which affects performance negatively. As an example, when using the copy command in rhino; The object you are copying disappears in the enscape viewport, the "new" copied object will float around in the enscape viewport until you place it in rhino. The original object will reappear when you are done using the copy command. (I guess there could be more "funny" stuff happening if we tested more commands, like array, loft, flow...). (Workaround : don't run enscape while working, only rendering)
    4. No enscape toolbar showing (Workaround: You need to create a custom toolbar to access the Enscape buttons).
    5. Render results are different every time you render. We tried to render same view, with the same settings, 7 times, a we got 7 different results in terms of shadows and reflections. We tried another one where, the first render was the best result in terms of reflections, we rendered 4 more times which were similar, but worse in terms of glass reflection, sadly. This was not a problem with 3.4.4, and it is a bit "scary" when you think about postproduction and updating renders. (Workaround: none known yet - a risk we have to live with).
    6. The Rhino viewport will change/sync, when selecting a saved view in the enscape viewport. (Workaround: None, just live with it).

    The problems are limited to annoyances, and i do believe we are slowly treading outside the "unusable state". We will try and upgrade more users and hope it will not lead to too much lost work and efficiency.

    Hi there, I've forwarded your list to the team working on the integration. Some of these might just be things we need to fix together with McNeel but I wanted to make sure that all the bug reports are tracked in our system (afaik they are) thank you.

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    Render results are different every time you render. We tried to render same view, with the same settings, 7 times, a we got 7 different results in terms of shadows and reflections. We tried another one where, the first render was the best result in terms of reflections, we rendered 4 more times which were similar, but worse in terms of glass reflection, sadly. This was not a problem with 3.4.4, and it is a bit "scary" when you think about postproduction and updating renders. (Workaround: none known yet - a risk we have to live with).


    Hey HNY , could you share examples of these differences (privately) with us? Ideally, if possible, with the project to reproduce it ourselves.
    A few questions to clarify:

    • Are all renderings created on the same machine? Or are you comparing renderings of different machines? Does it also happen if you render the same image twice directly after each other, or did you e.g. load a different project in the meantime in between?
    • Did this problem already occur with 3.5 or is it only happening with 4.0 and later for you?


    Generally speaking image rendering results should be deterministic, except for time based effects, such as clouds or animated vegetation.
    However we did introduce a flexible geometry limit for hardware ray-tracing with Enscape 4.0. This allows users to fully utilize their available VRAM of their graphics card to maximize the quality of reflections and global illumination, which was an often received request. This can mean that the same scene looks slightly different on a system with a different GPU or even if you have a significantly different VRAM usage on the same system.


  • Hey HNY , could you share examples of these differences (privately) with us? Ideally, if possible, with the project to reproduce it ourselves.
    A few questions to clarify:

    • Are all renderings created on the same machine? Or are you comparing renderings of different machines? Does it also happen if you render the same image twice directly after each other, or did you e.g. load a different project in the meantime in between?
    • Did this problem already occur with 3.5 or is it only happening with 4.0 and later for you?


    Generally speaking image rendering results should be deterministic, except for time based effects, such as clouds or animated vegetation.
    However we did introduce a flexible geometry limit for hardware ray-tracing with Enscape 4.0. This allows users to fully utilize their available VRAM of their graphics card to maximize the quality of reflections and global illumination, which was an often received request. This can mean that the same scene looks slightly different on a system with a different GPU or even if you have a significantly different VRAM usage on the same system.

    Hi Clemens Musterle


    I am from the same company as HNY. I have been doing the tests, and i would happily share the results with you. How would you like it?


    To quickly answer your questions;


    1. all renderings are created on the same machine. I tried both to render it directly after each other (3-4 times) and where i switched between views and re-rendered. The outcome was slightly and significantly different every time.

    2. We did not use 3.5.x at the office because of the way the version affected the Rhino viewport(laggy), while enscape was running. But it worked perfectly in 3.4.4 which is the version we have been using the last year.


    Let me know how you would like the Renders :)


    Kind regards

    Simon

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    1. PNG's does not have transparent background anymore, but white. (Workaround possible by making it into a native enscape material)

    Thank you very much for your cooperation so far, it's really appreciated. We'll remain in touch of course regarding the other issues but just to let you know:


    This behavior specifically has also been filed as a bug now, which occurs when dragging the transparent .png file directly into Rhino (as a surface object with "Picture" material applied to it) instead of importing the file manually, as a workaround you can add the transparent image via our dedicated Material Editor itself or of course convert it to a Enscape material as you've done prior.


    As yet another alternative check out the following image:


    Hereby simply click on "Adjust..." in Render Mesh Settings area on the Picture object and disable Pack Textures which should also do the trick.


    I'll definitely let you know once this has been fixed (if technically possible) as well.